Category: Let's talk
Hi
Since I've been posting an awful lot of new topics here recently I have a new one.
I was reading another topic here and the question of the importance of blindness for our identity is.
So I just want to ask you how much you guys think of blindness or vision impairment as an important part of your identity. Basically anything you have to say on this is cool here.
It would kinda depend on what you mean by identity? Do I identify myself as
a blind person? No, not really, because blindness is just a physical
characteristic of me. However, to others I appear most especially as a blind
person, so that is an identity I must come to grips with. So I'm afraid I don't
really have a straight answer for that.
Since blindness impacts how I live my life in a lot of ways, I'd be foolish to say it wasn't part of my identity at all. But it's only one of many things. I'm a woman, a Christian, engaged to be married, and a whole host of other things. And yes, in all that, I'm also blind. I guess I accept it as part of who I am, and beyond the ways it influences my daily life, don't overthink it much more than that.
An interesting question. I guess since I’ve been blind since birth, and since I do all those um, blind things, like read Braille and travel with a cane and all that, I guess I’m a blind person. No way of getting around that. I’m a whole lot of other things besides. I’m a musician, and sometimes that’s its own curse because we all know the stereotypes. And, of course, since my primary musical home has been country, I had to listen to the Ronnie Milsap references when I personally prefer George Jones. But I’m also white, which is something I don’t really care anything about. I’m an uncertain theistic/spiritualistic agnostic, which is more important because I’m trying to figure out what it’s all about and/or trying to determine whether or not there’s actually anything to figure out, and I’m a gay male, which is lately the most important part of my identity. You might even say I’m a little defiant about it sometimes. I guess I’m a political liberal who doesn’t like to be completely pinned down in any one camp because I believe life to be more ambiguous than black and white, and I’m a bit of a loner who also tends to develop very close friendships. I’m single and generally okay with it although it would be nice to find someone, and I consider myself rather average in appearance. On the blindness identity issue, I sometimes think I want to be able to have my cake and eat it too. My feelings about it have become surprisingly complex over the years. I don’t mind identifying myself as a blind person, but I don’t want it to be the be-all/end-all about me. Plus, one of the things I’m noticing lately about a friend of mine is that he keeps comparing me with other blind people he’s known over the years. One of the things he said about me recently is that he thinks I am a person who is blind, not a blind person. It’s that so-called one-percent thing you hear a little bit about. I think I understand what he’s trying to get at, but I’m not necessarily comfortable with it because in a way, it’s a bit of a left-handed compliment. I mean, what are blind people supposed to be like, for godsake? Plus, I’ve never been comfortable with the whole pedestal concept. I guess I don’t mind being the blind guy, but at the same time I wish it weren’t so damned remarkable. Which by the way, I recognize as being slightly unrealistic right now.
I couldn't have said it better cody myself when it comes to this thread;
That's me.
Fuck it.
I'd agree with Sister Dawn and Cody.
What the heck was that impricator?
It means, what a load of crap. May as well talk about baldness identity, double-jointedness identity, etc.
Honestly, I never really thought about this much. To me my visual limitations - brought on by underdevelopment of optic nerves - were just part of life. I have two hands, two feet, no tail, two nipples, ears and nostrals ... and less than half a working eye. I do think my circumstances brought about by my vision contribute to my personality and way of life as a whole, but like others here, it doesn't define me. I do identify myself as a visually impaired person, not a person who is visually impaired, but to me these phrases mean the same thing. Honestly, the only time I think about it at all is when I'm around other visually impaired people - which is rare these days - and when the condition inconveniences me - such as when I need to read something, or perform an action which takes me longer than it would a sighted person.
I think about blindness when it inconveniences me, but it is not on the list of things that I'd clasify as being representative of my identity.
Hey Imp, what is wrong with baldness identity if you feel that has a part to play in your life.
My personal answer to my own post goes something like this.
My impairment, that is blindness does of course have a big impact on who I am as a person. I use a white cane to help me get around, often experience other peoples negative attitudes towards blind and disabled people in general and so on. At my current point in life I am an active member of an organization of visually impaired people, work with teaching visually impaired people computers and have visually impaired friends whom I am in regular contact with. eAll this does not however in any way change that I am many other things. College student, feminist, male, a friend an many other things.
so at this point in my life my identity as a blind person plays a big role and is important to m. I don't think however this has allways been the case nor will it allways be. In the future I might sea myself a lot more as something else like hopefully a father, an employee of some company or other or something entirely different.
We sometimes have a tendency to judge those who do not value the same things we do as inferior or at least being to put it simply "not cool". But Is it ours to judge how someone else views themselves? In a way we situate ourselves relative to others by having oppinions about how other people are. I think we should ask ourselves whether the way we think of ourselves is in some way better then someone elses.
Just because we are something doesn't mean that's "all" we are. I know some people who are adament that their visual impairment does not define them. And I get it. nobody wants to be labeled for a single trait. I do think however - and this is of course just me - it is one part of a whole which does influence our lives to a degree; one piece in an intricate tapestry which defines our existence. No one trait or quality defines us. But together they form what we are.
blindness is not what I, personally, wanna be known for, which is why I say that there are many other facets to my personality than just that thing.
for example, I have had numerous surgeries throughout my life, but that does not define who I am; it is just a fact of my life.
My principle is that, i am who i am. the cane or the dog is part of me, just like my blindness. It doesn't define who i am, but it is like, my yellow skin or black hair does not define who, i am.
Yup, that's what I meant earlier as well.
I have a problem. People see me as smart and blind. Therefore, I must dedicate my entire life to making the world more accessible for the blind. They know I study computer science, so that means I'm going to become a famous professor who teaches the blind and writes software for the blind. They seem to forget that the reason I chose computer science in the first place is because I think technology is cool and interesting all by itself. I feel like I've been invited to a party with interesting people (computer science), but I've been left mostly by myself in a corner in the back of the room (accessibility) where I can't participate in any other conversations. How can I form my own identity under these conditions?
What you are saying Voyager is I think a very good example of a certain kind of to get overly dramatic, "cultural box" that society has made for us. You are expected to be interested in accessibility since you're blind and good at computer science sort of in the same way women are expected in many cases to be feminists. In a way you might say that society forces or at least only sells identities in 3 different sizes and colours and you just have to buy into that. It can be hard to break these barriers but I don't think it's impossible. As a computer scientist I'd guess there's a lot of opportunity to be creative and work on projects you are interested in and not the projects people expect blind computer scientists to work on.
I tend to think that identity should be defined by more than just physical aspects of a person.
I view my identity as made up of several ethnic and emotional and cultural things, all of which are more than just my physical makeup.
being a socialist, a Cornish-Australian, an atheist, a songwriter, are just some examples of my identity as defined by my beliefs, values and ethnicity.
there are cultural or idealogical aspects too them, all of whichare more important. I don't think there is identity behind being a person with red hair, or a short person, so why should blindness be different?
I also think focusing exclusively on one physical characteristic and calling it your identity is kind of silly. But I'm not sure identity is something people have total control over. If people talk about blindness around me all the time then I'm going to think about blindness more often whether I want to or not. A very big part (if not all) of who I am is what I spend my time thinking about. So more time spent hearing and thinking about blindness means more of my identity is blindness.
Sometimes, I have the opportunity to spend more time around people who don't really care how much I can see. We don't talk about it much unless it's relevant, so I leave the conversation thinking about something unrelated to blindness. I read books which have nothing to do with blind people. I live my life in such a way that I don't have to think as often about blindness because the inconvenience of it is reduced. The more I do these things, the less I feel like I am blindness incarnate, if that makes sense.
People talk about blindness all the time around me and to me, but that doesn't mean that I listen. I don't tend to listen to random people who want to have opinions on the matter, especially when they know very little. My identity is mine, and it's not defined by others.
What do you mean when you say you don't tend to listen to them? Are you saying you don't tend to agree with them, or do you just put on a pair of headphones or walk away so you don't have to hear them anymore?
I hear people's comments whether I want to or not. They're a part of my environment. I change in response to the environment, which is often outside my control. So I doubt that what I spend time thinking about or how I define myself can be attributed 100% to free will.
I point blank refuse to interact with strangers who want to talk blindness with me. fuck that. blindness is boring, and I am not getting paid to educate them out of their ignorances. Whenever I go out, I have headphones in and if not, and someone talks to me, I tend to pretend I either can't understand them, which is easy, since I just start talking one of the foreign languages I speak, or I just ignore them. I can't trust myself to remain civil if I actually start really paying attention to them, because they might try to pray for me or something equally offensive.
I have Social Anxiety, and I thus hate and fear contact with strangers, so I just try being as unapproachable as possible.
That's entirely your prerogative. I don't really discuss it with strangers either. But I also don't talk shop with most people either. Part of every person's personal autonomy is just that. And for as progressive as some imagine themselves to be, they rarely bring up personal autonomy in these "blindness" discussions.
Hats off to you for knowing what you want and going after it.
Perestroika, you wrote: I have Social Anxiety, and I thus hate and fear contact with strangers, so I just try being as unapproachable as possible.
That's me! At the university, that's pretty much exactly how I feel. I don't like to explore the place because people harass me. I've started just saying "go away!"
But, I'm told, I can't say that. It's not nice. If those people were me they'd be saying it too.
If I knew that random strangers wouldn't approach me on the street I would definitely go out more. Maybe you could give me some pointers on how to appear unfriendly.
best advice? wear headphones all the time and listen to loud music.
if you rely on your hearing to get around though, don't. I have some sight and can use it, so I can effectively do without my hearing for the most part. However, if you just turn them off for the times you need hearing it should work too. always listen to them when you're on a train or bus. even if you know someone is trying to get your attention, keep listening and ignore them.
this is my most effective strategy.
Don't listen to loud music, get a good pair of headphones. Lol
Noise cancleling, low volume.
Seriously, I can't remember the last time someone approached me and specificly wanted to talk about blindness.
The people I call firnds, or family don't talk about it.
Interesting.
I think if someone always wanted to talk to me about being blind, I'd find the most negative aspect about them and open conversations on it. Lol
Wow, I see you're fat. Have you heard about the... hahaha.
Really weird. Why on earth would someone do that, and why would a blind person read books, and surround themselves with blind related things?
no, it needs to be headphones that let other people know you're listening to loud music.
it makes people a hell of a lot less interested in talking to you. sometimes, people can miss the fact that you have headphones on if they can't hear anything with it, especially if they are small and not easy to see because of colour. some people have started conversations and I've taken them off half way through whatever they were saying and they never even realised.
even non-sighted people who do this give a strong sense of being anti-social and unapproachable.
Never, and I repeat, never, read braille on a bus or train. that means people are a lot more likely to approach because they are curious.
sorry, I mean, even sighted people who do this.
Noise canceling are noticeable.
If you are wearing in ear, not earbuds, you can see them.
Much better for your hearing too.
Nice, good sounding clean music.
If you must.
Bose and Beats makes really nice sets. Beats has red wireless ones too.
You don’t even neede the music playing in the headphones, and Bose and Beats makes a pair that have outside aware. You can hear what’s around you in them if you want.
Good for long plane rides, or train rides.
If people come up to you meaning to help you just start by telling them politely that you don't need it. If they continue harrasing you after that they're in my oppinion being rude and the social interaction of ignoring has opened up and should be used. That's not saying that sometimes accepting assistance can be benefitial even though it's the harder choice to make.
Loui, you make an interesting comparison in one of your posts. If I understand correctly you're saying that blindness should not be more a part of your identity then being small or red haired. Do you think your vision impairment has had a similarly big impact on your life as your hair colour?
Or do you mean something else entirely?
Haven't thought about the question much. I'm not going to do what lots of people do and defensively point out that I do not let my blindness define me. Really I don't know if I let it or not, and I didn't know I could have such control over such a thing or not. I just don't let my blindness have wild parties with the other blindnesses in the neighborhood and I don't allow it to make international long distance calls. LOL! Now I might read the occasional book with the blind character in it if I think the story is interesting but for the most part I read your standard fantasy and sci-fi books with just standard book characters in them. I've got my talking gizmos. I mostly interact with blind people on-line and some sighted locals that I also know in flesh-and-blood space. I dunno, is that making blindness my identity? Now I might get the occasional remark from randoms when I'm out by myself, oddly enough, it seems you avhe to be unaccompanied in order to be approached by randoms but I don't get quizzed as much as people just call me amazing or inspirational or remark how much they have determined my life to completely suck donky balls knowing only that I can't see. Gotta love those folks who think they've got ya in a nutshell, they don't. I find when I'm with other people I don't get people wanting to talk to either of us, even if it's with my wife who is as blind as I am. So that may be another key if you don't want randoms bugging you. If you've got somebody or several somebodies you can stand being around for a while, take them with you.
I don't think that physical characteristics play a role in ones identity. I studied identity as a part of my community service cource, and that taught me a lot about what identity actually means to different people. Identity should define parts of your personality and it should be more than just a physical thing. I know there are some movements to identify as purely physical things, like gingers, for example, but that's not really an identity as such, more a fad as little emotional or cultural aspects are attached to it.
for example, some of my identities include,
Cornish-Australian, Immigrant, Musician, Atheist, Socialist and friend.
every person can have a number of identities depending on what is important to them and how those specific identities effect them on a holistic level.
Being blind only effects me on a physical level. I don't think differently because of it,
and it doesn't contribute significantly to my emotional or mental state like the other identities listed do. so in that sense, it's about as important as my hair colour.
However my identity as a socialist, atheist or immigrant effect the way I act and interact with society. they effect decisions I make, the way I feel about certain things and so on. they effect the way I see myself, my actions and the actions of others. They dictate the people I respect and call friends, and those who I think are complete idiots.
blindness doesn't.
Yeah, but when you step out the door with your cane, or dog iin hand, the world, that is paying mind anyway, says "oh, a blind lady."
Now, what I think, and what they think might differ, but there it is.
but the world doesn't shape my personal identity. that's not how it works. Other people's experiences are their own, and it might shape how they see me, but that isn't my identity.
Going back to post 33. It is my belief that if a blind person was sighted, their thinking would be affected indirectly. Let me give a few examples.
A common topic of interest for both blind and sighted people is Hybrid automobiles. Now, take a second and say you could see. Do you think you would have the opinion that these cars, which are often much quieter than cars that fuel off of petroleum, are dangerous because they are considerably quieter? I know if I was, I feel safe to assume it probably wouldn't cross my mind. Maybe if I rode a bicycle often, my opinion would be different, but for simplicity's sake we won't try to be too specific.
Example 2. You are beginning your first semester as a Professor at a well-known university. In this scenario, let's say again that you are sighted. You are teaching three classes with upwards of 100 plus students in each of your classes. Take a few moments to imagine going over the objectives of the course... what topics you are going over, as well as the projects, quizes, and exams that compose the course. I am pretty certain that no Professor will think of accommodations for students with special needs first thing. I don't think that some blind people understand this. Nor do I want people to think I'm saying blind people and sighted people cognatively differ. I do believe, however, that it is honestly hard to say that we know exactly how we would think of situations if we were sighted, and the same goes for sighted people who think they would know (or not know, for that matter) what they would think or do if they suddenly lost their vision.
Going back to the topic at hand I appreciate you sharing your knowledge about identity. Something seemed sort of odd about putting blindness together with identity to me, and I couldn't exactly figure out why until you said that.
Sometimes, it is best to realize you can't make people draw the conclusion about you that you want. It doesn't mean it hurts to educate people. I know not everyone feels obliged to teach people about blindness, and I respect that. I know it is frustrating dealing with ignorance, especially when people are so ignorant that they don't see what's wrong with their logic or perspective. I do not waste my time with those people. A man told me not long ago that I have no choice but to depend on people, that I am unable to defend myself, and that I "can't run because I would crash into stuff." I said two words, "you're wrong," and put in my sound-proof earbuds. At the same time, I don't mind educating the curious. Some people get it, folks, that we are people too, and that blindness is only a physical characteristic. And like I said before, I do believe blindness may play a part in our point-of-view and what we value most. I may be blind, agnostic, white, Utilitarian or Libertarian depending on the debate, etc. But I don't introduce myself as such. That is why we have
a name. Hopefully that makes sense, and I appologize for doing this in two different posts, but my Braillenote was acting up and I was afraid of losing what I wrote.
Yes, blindness is a part of my identity; I am a blind person.
I think this is an important topic because there is, and probably has always been, a problem with people being forced to, or refusing to identify themselves as or associate with certain groups of people, whether they technically could be categorized as such or not. For instance, at the beginning of my adolescence, my parents trained my siblings and I on how to act white. We had just moved from an all-black community in West Detroit to the suburbs, and my parents told us that if we did not act white, white people would look down on us and think we were “ignant niggas.” We had to talk white, wear our hair white, and listen to white people music. The talking white thing was the biggest deal, especially in public. Anytime we misspoke or said something in black English, we were scolded. We lived in the suburbs, we were better than that.
I understand that this is very controversial, but it was, and is very real for many minorities. You have to act like the majority so they don’t look down on you. You have to assimilate and identify with them as much as possible, or you are less than them.
Belonging to the group of blind people is a big deal to me, just as much as it is a big deal that I belong to the group of black people. I spent long enough being denied and denying who I am, being shamed for and ashamed of what I am, and so yes, I am a black blind woman. It is not always the best thing in the world. I have been discriminated against and singled out for all three of those things on various occasions, but so what? I have also gained privileges because of being a member of those so-called inferior identities.
I think most people take it for granted, that you can choose or refuse to identify with certain groups of people, until you are forced to act opposite of what you are, and are made ashamed to be who you are. Nothing hurt me more when my parents lectured us about being “ignant niggas.” Nothing hurt me more than when my mother didn’t want to be seen with me using a cane at certain businesses. So now, I am very adamant about what and who I am. Of course, I am a number of other things, and those characteristics are just as important to me. Yes, I have been picked on and shamed for being an introvert, and that hurts, too. But I am no more ashamed to be black or blind than I am to be an introvert. Those things matter to me equally.
My mother doesn’t always interact with me or teach me things the same way as she does with my siblings because I am her blind daughter. When my siblings hang out with me, there are certain things they don’t do because I am their blind sister. When I was in school, accommodations had to be provided because I was a blind student. When I have worked jobs, I needed things that my coworkers did not because I am a blind employee. I cook the way I do because I am blind, I walk with a guide dog because I am blind, I identify my clothes the way I do because I am blind. There is nothing wrong with that. Yes, sometimes it sucks. Sometimes, it is an inconvenience. Sometimes, I wish things were different. But they’re not, so I accept and embrace it, because it is me, and I will love myself, no matter how other people view me, and no matter what society says is inferior. There are things about being a woman that suck, and there are things about being black that also suck. So what? Am I supposed to think those things are wrong, or negative aspects of myself? Absolutely not! I refuse to. Just as those characteristics can have their drawbacks, they also have their benefits, and so I will not lament about it because that will achieve nothing.
It is disturbing to me the people who are so proud of acting white, acting sighted, acting straight, and so on. It says to me that those people are ashamed of what they truly are, and that there is something wrong about how other people in their group behave. I am not saying anyone needs to act a certain way depending on which group they belong to, but they should not elevate themselves above others just because they act like this while others in their group do not. We all are people with mannerisms, strengths, and weaknesses. Whether we choose to identify with those mannerisms, strengths, and weaknesses is a personal choice, but we should not pride ourselves for choosing not to, and we should not condemn others for choosing to.
On being introverted and having social anxiety, you just have to ignore some people. I do not walk around decimating my eardrums, but I also don't talk to everyone I encounter because they want to talk. I am 100 percent comfortable with ignoring people, and walking away in the middle of a conversation if I feel things are uncomfortable, inappropriate, or just extremely bothersome at the moment. The only time it is your job to educate or talk to anyone is if they are paying you. Otherwise, it is okay to be selfish, it is okay to be rude, and don't judge yourself harshly for it. You are not like everyone else, so the things you do will not always be pleasing or polite in their opinion.
It is not necessary to wear headphones if you just train yourself to ignore others. For instance, my knee-jerk response to someone calling my name is not to look at or verbally acknowledge that person. I have even trained myself to not change my facial expression. Think of your relative or friend trying to get your attention about something they've nagged you about a million times. You have no problem blocking them out. I am to the point now where, in public, I almost always assume someone is talking to someone else other than me unless they call my name, or say something to the effect of "miss in the dark red coat." And even then, I might not respond if I know they want to run their mouth about something bothersome.
hi sword of sapphire,
I strongly disagree with you about blindness. In your post, you claimed that like being african american, blindness has advantages. I strongly disagree with you on this point. There is no advantage whatsoever
of being blind. Blindness is classified as a major disability for good reason. It will profoundly affect everything you do. Though technology allows us to do most things sighted people do, we are far from equal to sighted people and never will be probably. I don't consider blindness to be anything other than a cronic medical condition. I have no emotional attachment to blindness and would choose to treat it if ever a treatment became available that applies to my condition. So, I am a person who is blind. Not a blind person.
Ghost,
If your blindness is only a medical condition why are you here on this site? Is the zone a medical condition?
Good point. Next time I'm looking for anything related to assistive technology, I'll be sure to bring it up on a site that only sighted people visit. I'll be shocked when most of them don't have a clue what Voiceover is, or when I never see another Braille display for sale because no one knows what those are, either.
Sword of Sapphire, I can understand your post, and loved it.
I’m also a black person, but was never told to deny that fact.
Speaking correctly is not a white thing, it is an educated thing.
Using terms only a black person might use was not ignorant, but cultural. We were always taught to be proud of what we were, and how we were. I knew others that were not, so I understand you perfectly.
I also have been given things or had advantages due to being blind.
I don’t think she means being blind gets you further in the world, and she does say it is sometimes a bother. What she means, is we are allowed things sighted persons are not. One major thing is a living. We don’t have to be beggars in America if we cannot find adequate employment, and that is an advantage no matter how you see it.
Some countries have it, others don’t.
Sure, it is medical as well, but not in a sense you can be treated for it.
Nice post.
Hey Forreal
How do you speak correctly and who has the crown of correct speech?
Correct speech means not using slang for terms.
Next, and I’m speaking English only now, the pronunciation of words makes a difference.
Example. The word them is pronounced dim.
The word sink is pronounced sank.
Potatoes are called tatters.
A person that has been educated and reads speaks a specific way from one that has not been to school often. That person might live around others that have not.
This is true in all cultures or languages. That is what I mean.
But everyone uses slang in all sorts of languages. Just confining ourselves to English, whether it's Ebonics or whether it's just plain old everyday slang, it's still slang. I do it all the time when I use "gunna" instead of "going to" or "wanna" instead of "want to." Technically it's not correct, but I'm gunna keep doing it here because I don't always wanna write going to or want to. Doesn't mean I'm not educated because in all actuality I'm supposed to be. Just means I'm a little plain-spoken, and I like that. Maybe it's in how much you use and in what circumstances? Dunno. (There's another one.)
Wayne is right that often, black people speak incorrectly. I call it "black talk," but Wayne, maybe that's what you're classifying as slang?
I wholeheartedly agree that it's important to encourage them to speak correctly, and I don't understand how some people are unwilling to stand behind that.
for example, instead of saying, "I'ma ax you a question," which many black people do, they need to say, "I'd like to ask you a question."
I don't think it's necessary for me to spell out why I feel as I do, so I'll leave it at that for now.
also, I think it's great that sword of sapphire's parents instilled in her/her siblings the importance of sounding educated when you speak. if every parent taught their children that, that alone would make the world a much better place.
I'm sorry, but anything that affects the way you live your day-to-day life, whether it is in public or behind closed doors, is an identity. Closet smokers are still smokers, even though they hide it as much as possible.
Wayne, thank you for understanding and adequately explaining what I meant about the benefits of being blind. Maybe the Ghost has not ever benefited from having a documented disability in school, playing the disability card, or from SSI, but many of us have.
Chelsea, as someone who has studied etymology, linguistics, and the history of the English language, it is not okay to deem the way anyone speaks as incorrect, improper, or uneducated. That kind of talk is the stuff that contributes to prejudice, and I'm not going to agree with anything of that nature.
Yes, it is good that my parents taught us to speak well. It is not good the way they went about it. It is not good that white people will look down on me for speaking my natural dialect. It is not good that I have to worry about drastically changing the way I speak around a person because they could reject me for being "too black."
I understand there is no such thing as equality, but diversity exists in spite of this fact. Diversity in ethnic background, race, and community influence differences in the way people speak. Certain people's dialects are nonstandard, but not wrong. Saying that Black English is wrong is like saying Mexican Spanish is wrong. It is simply a different way of speaking, and those who feel it is a matter of education are the ones who are truly uneducated.
Believe me, even in Black English, there is casual speech and business speech. It might not measure up to what standard English speaking whites expect to hear from a businessperson, but that is their own loss.
black people playing the victim cause they think people are against them due to their color, is what contributes to prejudice. and, most of them do that quite frequently, in some form or other, just like we're seeing here.
Raven, it is not about "acting white" as you seem to think it is; it is about being educated, which is far more than just sounding educated.
the problem with speaking what you consider your unique and special dialect, Raven, is that no one but other black people can understand what you're saying when you speak it.
I realize that doesn't seem problematic to you, which is one of many reasons why we have so many problems in the world: some people are just unwilling to educate themselves, and would much rather stay in their safe space where they can speak their black talk, and gripe about how hard they have it in the world they live in.
I'll add that people like Wayne, for example, get exactly what I'm talking about.
Wayne understands and accepts that there is an educated way to speak, not to take one's blackness away, or what have you, but simply because, in order to make it in the world, you have to know how to articulate yourself in a manner that will be easily understood by most everyone (not just a specific group of people).
I don't mean to put you on the spot Wayne, but it is truly refreshing that you have the view that you do, and I wish more people thought similarly as you. you share your experiences as a fellow human being, not as a "black man," and I've never seen you say that something was done to you because of your color. that, to me, is respectable, and the model that everyone should follow.
Chelsea,
There are people who play victim who have a deep mistrust, and people who have no idea what it is like to be victimized but want those benefits of being a victim. And then there are those who have faced the hatred of racists, and have the misfortune of being all too familiar with prejudice and racism.
I am not playing the victim, I am simply saying that the way I speak, or the way anyone speaks, should not be cause for a person to look at me or others as uneducated. I am not saying there should not be a standard. I understand the reasons for one, and am fine with having a standard in the business place among coworkers. But in a casual encounter, it should be perfectly acceptable.
What contributes to prejudice is prejudiced attitudes. Attitudes that propagate the idea that people who look, act, or speak a certain way are less than or inferior. People who are different are not educated, good, beautiful, insert your positive adjective/thought here. That is what contributes to prejudice. Believe me, those attitudes exist among all kinds of people, even blacks. It is not okay to promote such attitudes. It is okay to teach a standard, it is not okay to teach someone to be ashamed of who and what they are because they don’t meet that standard. Don’t promote the attitude that acting or speaking white is better than acting or speaking black. This has nothing to do with playing victim, and everything to do with sociopolitical ideas of how we should identify ourselves. So far, these ideas promote that the majority or the ones with more power are better, so do what they do because it is right. That is what contributes to prejudice.
You can be educated and still speak Black English, I do it all the time. Whether you choose to look at me as educated or uneducated is your choice. Black English, formally called African American vernacular, has nothing to do with one’s level of education. It is a dialect of English, just as Standard American English is a dialect, and just like there are a multitude of dialects throughout the US, and all countries. There is no wrong way to speak. Black English, as all dialects, has its own set of rules concerning grammar and diction. Just because you are not fully aware of this does not make it wrong. Just because I say “aughnt” and you say “aunt” does not mean I am wrong and you are right. There are different ways of pronouncing the word, and it typically is influenced by the community and culture you were raised in.
Other people can certainly understand it. I don’t expect people to know all the hot new slang, but people can understand the conventions of Black English. It is a dialect that has been around for centuries; it is nothing new.
No, diversity in speech is not problematic to me. Everyone is not raised to or is not able to speak Standard American English. So what? Are they bad, wrong, or stupid? Absolutely not. Am I going to look down on my coworkers who speak Black English to our supervisor while I choose not to? Never. They are obviously just as qualified as I am, if not more so, and they got where they are, so who am I to look down on them for deciding to speak black to our white boss?
Yes, some people are unwilling to educate themselves. This is not limited to black people, so stop with the accusatory tone. You obviously have not experienced an instance of what I described in my first post in relation to personal identity, so don’t feel like you need to mitigate mine, or anyone else’s experience because maybe it is unheard of or hasn’t happened in your world.
I am not certain about Wayne, but I have certainly experienced racism, and understand what it feels like to have someone hate you simply because of the color of your skin. I do not wish it on anyone. I don’t think it’s something people should have to face, but it still happens. Racism is very real, and the fact that people want to hide it, hide from it, shush everyone about it, and say that people are crying wolf is incredibly ignorant and insensitive. No, in most places throughout the country, this problem is not as prevalent as it was 50, 100, or 200 years ago, but it still exists. In order for this problem to be solved, it has to be acknowledged. If I am less respectable in your eyes for asserting that I have experienced racism, then so be it.
My ultimate goal here is to encourage people to embrace who they are, and not feel like they are less than because of some standard. Just as ethnic people should not have to aspire to act white, blind people should not have to aspire to act sighted. I understand there are behaviors that are socially inappropriate. But when I step out my door in the morning, there is no reason for me to worry over how blind I look to sighted people or how black I sound to the white people I will encounter throughout my day.
I experience racism, on a daily bases, or if not daily, in my life all the time.
I am identified as a black man. I do not try to hide this fact, nor my blindness as well, so on both levels I am thought of as lesser by some.
This is there thing, not mine.
On the speaking, this is not a black thing, but a human thing. Some people, no matter their race are uneducated, book learning I call this, so speak in the terms they do.
Others, like myself, and the poster before me, choose the mode of speech we apply depending on the situation.
I’m highly educated, as in book learning, as it’s called, but I am also highly versed or educated about my culture, speech patterns, and such, and I am naturally able to fall in to the dialect just as if I speak Spanish, or German.
Again, my parents taught me to be proud of my blackness.
I did not mean to imply that all who speak slang are not educated, only that some that have not been educated, book learning, are going to speak in these terms for the simple reason, they have no other language taught them.
I have no idea based on a person’s speech if she or he is educated, book learning, or smart generally, but it is often times how it is viewed.
If we walk as people without boundaries, weather we are black, or blind, we are going to bump in to prejudice no matter what we do. I’d say it is just a human nature thing.
I don’t wake up in the morning and think, well, I’m a black and blind man, so let me act in that fashion, but when I step out my door, others see me as such, so it is my identity no matter how I feel about it.
It seems better to me to embrace it, not be angry about it.
Sometimes I benefit, others times I don’t.
The poster before me has opened up an interesting angle on this topic.
Raven, clearly, you dislike education, white people, and your black mother, by your refusal to use proper English.
your mother was right, speaking English well is the road to advancement in our society, as were people like Ruby Bridges, Roy Wilkins, Walter White, the NAACP, the Little Rock 9, and the many others who stood for civil rights, and integration. those heroic people risked their lives, so that you could get an education, which you are pissing away without a thought. congratulations on succeeding in obtaining your goal of being thought of as an "ignant nigga," as you like to say. are you really proud of this accomplishment?
No, Raven's mother was not right.
Next, you didn't read her post well. Smile.
She'll defend herself on that score.
My 2 cents is that black people should not tell there kids to act anything other then what they are.
I don't have a problem with teaching them that they will have times when they need to use what we use to jokingly call the Kings English. Acting other then you are, and trying to be other then you are is silly.
I don't believe in raceism in any form, and that type is what I call reverse raceism.
Life is difficult enough by simply being blind. Why further complicate your situation by being difficult to comprehend by throwing black slang into the mix? Most blind people would never know you were black unless you either told them you were black, or you start speaking black slang. Of course, slang is slang whether it is the version spoken by yankies, wild eyed southerners, hillbillies, Indians or black folk etc. They all feel like they are easy to understand. Of course, they are accustomed to their peculiar version of slang. In interest of effective communication between all concerned, why not remove one of the only removeable complications of your life by speaking and writing the correct English we were all taught in school? Then all you would need to worry about is being blind.
The Pooka - Who thinks Roy Wilkins, former ED of the NAACP and University Professor was the bomb!
Forereel, are you saying that not all children born in the United States are not equal citizens of the United states of America? It sounds a lot like you were saying that because kids are black, they should not have to follow the same rules and regulations as other children in schools or at home.
The Pooka
Please explained how you came to your conclusion from my post ?
If you’ll do that for me, I’ll explain?
I don’t remember saying anything about that at all.
Chelsea,
Considering you have never spoken to or witnessed my interpersonal interactions in person, you have no base for any of the conclusions you’ve come to. In my posts above, I never bashed education, educated people, white people, or my mother. What I am bashing is prejudiced attitudes. As I’ve said, it is a good thing that my parents taught us how to speak standard American English. The reasons that they used are not good, and contribute to prejudice. I understand why they think the way they do: they both grew up in the sixties, no need to state why that is significant or influential.
How can I bash education or educated people. I am a woman with a Bachelor’s degree. How have I refused to speak Standard American English? As I’ve said, I do speak that dialect. My telephone voice is the voice of a white woman. In person, I am far more lax with my speech, but when I’ve gone for job interviews, I speak Standard American English to receptionists, potential employers, and so on. You can think I am ignorant all you want, that’s fine. I have had several different jobs, and I am currently employed by several clients on a regular basis. You are as bad as those who think I am nothing simply because I exist in the skin of a black person, and I’m sure that makes you warm and fuzzy inside, so I’ll stop with the compliments.
Now if you think I’m bashing education and white people by uplifting, supporting, and asserting myself as equal to my counterparts who do not speak how I speak in certain situations, then I’m not quite sure how that makes sense, and I can see how you’ve arrived at the conclusions you have via your flawed logic.
Please reread the part of my post about standards. I think you’ve greatly misunderstood and misread things I’ve said. I think you are also choosing to pick a fight when there shouldn’t be one. Adhering to a standard in the work place is fine, but in day-to-day life outside of work, there is no need to hide behind a professional mask. There is nothing wrong with embracing and loving yourself for who you are, and there is nothing wrong with encouraging people to think they are good and beautiful, even if they don’t adhere to standards. If this is wrong to you, if you think differences from the norm or standard are bad, if you think diversity is a problem, then I will conclude that I am addressing a prejudiced individual.
Nothing you said is logically deductible from any of the posts I wrote. I’d like to see quotes of mine that support each of the conclusions you made.
Just in case anyone doesn’t know what I’m referring to, here are Chelsea’s conclusions that I would like her to support with quotes from my posts. Here’s Chelsea’s original quote:
“Raven, clearly, you dislike education, white people, and your black mother, by your refusal to use proper English.”
So support the following conclusions with quotes from my previous posts to this thread:
1. You dislike education
2. You dislike white people
3. You dislike your black mother
4. You refuse to use proper English
If anyone would like to help Chelsea out, go ahead.
And to The Pooka, if you are being honest and serious with your posts, please educate yourself on the difference between slang and a dialect.
I bet a lobster boat to a blueberry muffin you don't get a satisfactory answer.
Forereel - Where I got that was from your words, "black people should not tell there kids to act anything other then what they are."
The Pooka
Ah, okay.
What I mean by that statement is black people should not tell their kids to act like for example, white kidsas Raven posted her parents did.
If you like soul, rap, or blues, you should listen to this music, not be told to listen to rock, because it is going to be more accepted.
If you are a female and wear your hair corn rolled, you should not be told to straighten it. Straight hair is better or more acceptable right?
By the same token, I don’t feel parents of any culture should force kids, or encourage them to be like others in any way.
This has nothing to do with education. Education has no culture or race barriers, it is education.
If we are talking about speech, I was a college student. I wore my hair braided or corn rolled down my back with colored beads. When I had a meeting, or needed to speak in class, when I opened my mouth I spoke proper English. I didn’t suddenly change color, my hair didn’t change, nor my manner of dress.
If I was at home and spoke, my speech patterns were slightly different.
The same goes for if I were Mexican. If I spoke Spanish, when it was required, I’d speak proper English, but at home, I’d speak Spanish.
Education is not culture.
As a foreign person having reasonably good command of the English language, I'm telling you there is know such thing as one correct form of English, be it british English American English or any other. By the way, should I say Herbs or erbs. Hmmmmm, eloquence goes with erbs.
What I'm saying is that deciding what language is correct and what is not is only oppression in disguise. The people who get to choose what is correct are almost allways in a dominant position in society and have a tendency to use their language as a tool to oppress other groups. So recognizing that language is not right or wrong is in my opinion something that will at worst never have any negative effects.
That conclusion makes less sense than Sigmund Freud's conclusions about people's dreams having to do with the desire to have sex with their mothers, but I digress. The way people act and talk has to do with the environment, and what is deemed acceptable and unacceptable in the environment. It isn't advisable to speak educated, dress in a fancy suit and tie, or drive a hot car in specific areas, because you will stand out and could get robbed. Try prancing around in a suit and tie in Englewood, Chicago, and come back to me if you didn't get jumped. Yes, we all have the individual choice to talk and act a certain way, but a lot of the time we act differently depending on the environment, hence why we have friends outside of employment, family outside of school, etc.
Well, I don’t mean to high jack this topic and turn it in to a language deal, so I’ll say this and be done.
In any language if you attend school you are taught to write and speak that language in a specific manner.
When you are dealing with the general public, or doing business, you expect to be spoken to in a specific manner of address.
When was the last time you called your telephone company, or went to your doctor or did some other type business in your community?
When, for example, the operator answered your call, did he or she say “Hey dude, what the fuck can I fix you up with, huh?”
Do yak wanna change the callen tang?
No, you are spoken to in a specific manner, and you also will speak in a specific manner if you know how.
Maybe the people in power are responsible for this specific speaking pattern. However, if you are going to get along in a business setting, you’ll have to learn that manner and use it at that time.
How much credibility would you give a doctor, or nursing staff if they spoke to you in this manner?
“You all just slide on in here next week. K baby? We’s gonna fix yak up.”
I notice you used the word ain’t. I’ll bet if you need to write a paper, or proposal, you’ll not be using that term, now will you?
So, you might argue there isn’t a proper from of English, or correct language form, but I’ll bet even you expect professionals, and what you deem as educated persons to write and speak specifically.
If you spoke another language, you’d expect the correct form as well.
There's no one here arguing for everyone speaking this specific form of English. Sounding educated is very important in quote unquote educated settings. That is, I will expect doctors to speak in a certain way because that's the way doctors usually speak. As a sidenote, the doctors here where I live often do speak a very latinized version of Icelandic because that's the way there education teaches them to speak and it's actually a problem that doctors allways communicate clearly what they're saying to a person who's not a doctor.
The end point is that you do use different language in different settings, nothing more and nothing less. Just think of someone who'd use business language at a regular Monday dinner with their family.
I ment to say, doctor's don't allways manage to communicate